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keithr
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Post by keithr »

Reuben80 wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:20 pm So you agree that Hybrids charge themselves.
Yes, they charge themselves by regenerative braking, just like BEVs do (so perhaps the Honda e should be called self charging too!), and it seems that the Toyota may also use power from the petrol engine to charge the battery pack too. But I still would much prefer a zero emmissions BEV because I still have to breath in the air around me. The reason many countries are going to ban ICE vehicles is because of the poisonous exhaust emmissions that they produce, resulting in thousands of deaths every year (so they estimate). That's why many people find it hard to defend hybrids. They're a stop-gap measure, but by now we could/should be all driving full electric cars - it's the future of motoring. Toyota are a bit slow on producing BEVs (although apparantly they do produce one for sale in China, so they can do it if they want to).

I've been driving a BEV car for four years now, and I've recently changed from a petrol motorcycle to an electric motorcycle, and I wouldn't want to go back to a polluting petrol vehicle again (and never a diesel!).

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londiniumperson
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Post by londiniumperson »

@Reuben80
TLDR: I think I understand your argument; yes they do charge themselves.

My longer answer:
I'll start off stating that I am not anti hybrid, or anti any type of car propulsion (please no comments regards how bad diesels are).
My beef is with Toyota themselves & their blatantly false advertising because they are giving the impression that no fuel of any kind is needed to power their magical hybrids (it's no different to a Prius which has been doing this for many years).
A lot of people (specifically those with little or no EV knowledge) genuinely believed those adverts that no fuel was required at all and therefore they would never need to visit a petrol station or have to plug the car in ever.
I think hybrids will be a necessary stop-gap before BEVs are mainstream, because until we have as many (or even more easily accessible & cheap) charging stations as there are fuel pumps, people will be worried about running out of power. BEVs are expensive to purchase in comparison to an ICE/hybrid and once there is an easy to use extensive charging infrastructure then BEVs with smallish batteries will then come down in price relative to ICE cars and range anxiety will then be no different to that of an ICE car.
2022 Advance in Crystal Black Pearl on 17's - 08/2020-Current
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Reuben80
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Post by Reuben80 »

londiniumperson wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:21 pm @Reuben80
TLDR: I think I understand your argument; yes they do charge themselves.

My longer answer:
I'll start off stating that I am not anti hybrid, or anti any type of car propulsion (please no comments regards how bad diesels are).
My beef is with Toyota themselves & their blatantly false advertising because they are giving the impression that no fuel of any kind is needed to power their magical hybrids (it's no different to a Prius which has been doing this for many years).
A lot of people (specifically those with little or no EV knowledge) genuinely believed those adverts that no fuel was required at all and therefore they would never need to visit a petrol station or have to plug the car in ever.
I think hybrids will be a necessary stop-gap before BEVs are mainstream, because until we have as many (or even more easily accessible & cheap) charging stations as there are fuel pumps, people will be worried about running out of power. BEVs are expensive to purchase in comparison to an ICE/hybrid and once there is an easy to use extensive charging infrastructure then BEVs with smallish batteries will then come down in price relative to ICE cars and range anxiety will then be no different to that of an ICE car.
I don't agree with you that people with no knowledge believe that the car will run without petrol? With their advert they will finally realise that you do not need to plug in Hybrids to charge them. Just put petrol and you go. Toyota are not saying you don't need petrol. People do not buy Hybrids because they think they have to plug them in. With Hybrids you save more than half the cost of petrol of a normal ICE car and cost just a fraction more to buy, much less than BEV.
Last year I went for a holiday in Japan and I rented a Toyota Vitz Hybrid 2017 model for 3 weeks. I did 4700km with it and I averaged 33km/l (93mpg). Out of the 4700km I managed to do 2700km on pure EV mode. 57% of the whole trip. That is insane.
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londiniumperson
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Post by londiniumperson »

@Reuben80 You obviously surround yourself with clever people which is a good thing, however this is giving you a false reality of the world if you genuinely believe that no one thinks a hybrid will run without petrol. The stark reality is that there are a significant number of incredibly stupid people walking this planet who self perpetuate untruths (not helped by Facebook).
An off topic example was only the other day when someone would not accept that it was possible to fit different sized (from factory fit) wheels/tyres to an EV of any type, probably there same sort of dimwit that genuinely believes that EV's cannot be driven in the rain (yes, some people do believe this).

Is the Yaris hybrid the UK equivalent of the Toyota Vitz Hybrid? If so then I'm really surprised that you averaged 93mpg over such a large distance because a lot of UK reviews of the Yaris hybrid quote real world mpg as around 60mpg which is not that special because my son's 105hp petrol Skoda Fabia gets that sort of mpg.

I'm a little confused by your statement:
'I managed to do 2700km on pure EV mode. 57% of the whole trip.'.
How can a hybrid do that sort of distance without any use of petrol?
2022 Advance in Crystal Black Pearl on 17's - 08/2020-Current
2015 VW Tiguan (Pure White) - 04/2018-Current
1991 Honda Beat PP1 (Festival Red) - 11/2022-Current
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Reuben80
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Post by Reuben80 »

londiniumperson wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:23 pm @Reuben80 You obviously surround yourself with clever people which is a good thing, however this is giving you a false reality of the world if you genuinely believe that no one thinks a hybrid will run without petrol. The stark reality is that there are a significant number of incredibly stupid people walking this planet who self perpetuate untruths (not helped by Facebook).
An off topic example was only the other day when someone would not accept that it was possible to fit different sized (from factory fit) wheels/tyres to an EV of any type, probably there same sort of dimwit that genuinely believes that EV's cannot be driven in the rain (yes, some people do believe this).

Is the Yaris hybrid the UK equivalent of the Toyota Vitz Hybrid? If so then I'm really surprised that you averaged 93mpg over such a large distance because a lot of UK reviews of the Yaris hybrid quote real world mpg as around 60mpg which is not that special because my son's 105hp petrol Skoda Fabia gets that sort of mpg.

I'm a little confused by your statement:
'I managed to do 2700km on pure EV mode. 57% of the whole trip.'.
How can a hybrid do that sort of distance without any use of petrol?
It is very possible because the engine is used only for acceleration or uphill roads. To keep your speed you don't need the power of the engine, just a little throttle is all you need and when little power is needed Hybrids switch to EV mode automatically. The same when you go downhill, it is all EV. So if you have 20km downhill you will do 20km in EV.
When you do a rountrip you will always do more than 50% in EV mode because all the uphills will be downhill on the return leg. When you go uphill it charges the battery at the same time, downhill too, so in fact you always do around 65% of the trip in EV. In japan I did only 57% in EV because I had motorways too and at more than 70km/hr the engine does not shut off.

I am attaching a picture to see that I am not lying.

IMG_20190508_0933394.jpg

Joolsdc
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Post by Joolsdc »

How big is the battery in a mild hybrid? 1-3kWh? More. In order to run a long a flat, straight road the petrol engine MUST kick in to overcome tyre drag and internal friction. I believe you are reading the data incorrectly. The 57% means 57% of the time the car was receiving some boost by the battery. Not that the battery / motor powered the whole car, on its own. This is my theory. Unless you can provide the size of the battery and the size of the motor. E.g. my wife’s Mini Countryman PHEV has a 7.8kWh battery & a 89 HP electric motor that drives the car, on its own for up to 19 miles. Hybrids are good as baby steps to PHEVs to full EVs. But we have to stop burning stuff
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londiniumperson
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Post by londiniumperson »

Reuben80 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:24 pm It is very possible because the engine is used only for acceleration or uphill roads. To keep your speed you don't need the power of the engine, just a little throttle is all you need and when little power is needed Hybrids switch to EV mode automatically. The same when you go downhill, it is all EV. So if you have 20km downhill you will do 20km in EV.
When you do a rountrip you will always do more than 50% in EV mode because all the uphills will be downhill on the return leg. When you go uphill it charges the battery at the same time, downhill too, so in fact you always do around 65% of the trip in EV. In japan I did only 57% in EV because I had motorways too and at more than 70km/hr the engine does not shut off.

I am attaching a picture to see that I am not lying.
I'm flabbergasted, especially because as for comparison (admittedly a poor one) the BMW i3 rex can only do about 45mpg on petrol alone (though this not the same system as the Toyota hybrid).
2022 Advance in Crystal Black Pearl on 17's - 08/2020-Current
2015 VW Tiguan (Pure White) - 04/2018-Current
1991 Honda Beat PP1 (Festival Red) - 11/2022-Current
Joolsdc
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Post by Joolsdc »

Yaris has a 0.9kWh battery that could maybe power it for 2km, on a warm day.
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Reuben80
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Post by Reuben80 »

Joolsdc wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:54 pm Yaris has a 0.9kWh battery that could maybe power it for 2km, on a warm day.
Yes the Yaris has a 0.9kWh battery and is not mild Hybrid so EV is completely EV, no emission whatsoever.
2km range is if you push it in EV, yes after 2km the battery will go flat (actually 40%) but you are forgetting that it is self charge and the engine will charge the battery for the next 4km and you will have another 2km in EV.
By your logic should be 2km in EV + 4 km ICE + 2km in EV = 4km in EV total + 4km ICE total on an 8km trip = 50%
You are forgetting that going downhill you are not using any kW so you stay in EV.
Last edited by Reuben80 on Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joolsdc
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Post by Joolsdc »

😊
Your logic is flawed
Your 0.9kWh battery will not be fully recharged in 4km. The system is not perfect and there are losses. Up or down hill. Therefore you maths does not follow. I’d guess it would take at least 10km to recharge. Or more. During which the petrol motor is working harder, using more fuel
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