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Reuben80
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Post by Reuben80 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:22 pm

I am sorry but you are wrong because I own one and I know what I am saying. The charge is not from 0 to 100% but from 40% to 80% as the BMS protects the battery since it is small. It does not let it go under 40% or over 80% so it does not take long to charge 0.4 kWh

Joolsdc
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Post by Joolsdc » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:33 pm

Ok
I appreciate an hybrid is a bit more efficient than a pure petrol (my daughter gets 60mpg from her VW Up). You might get 75mpg from the Toyota. We get 120mpg + from our Mini Countryman PHEV. And a pure EV costs 1.2p per mile from green energy. We have to stop burning stuff.

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Reuben80
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Post by Reuben80 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:53 pm

londiniumperson wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:45 pm
Reuben80 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:24 pm
It is very possible because the engine is used only for acceleration or uphill roads. To keep your speed you don't need the power of the engine, just a little throttle is all you need and when little power is needed Hybrids switch to EV mode automatically. The same when you go downhill, it is all EV. So if you have 20km downhill you will do 20km in EV.
When you do a rountrip you will always do more than 50% in EV mode because all the uphills will be downhill on the return leg. When you go uphill it charges the battery at the same time, downhill too, so in fact you always do around 65% of the trip in EV. In japan I did only 57% in EV because I had motorways too and at more than 70km/hr the engine does not shut off.

I am attaching a picture to see that I am not lying.
I'm flabbergasted, especially because as for comparison (admittedly a poor one) the BMW i3 rex can only do about 45mpg on petrol alone (though this not the same system as the Toyota hybrid).
Yes as you said the rex is completely different as it is not connected to the wheels but it just keeps the charge level of the battery. You cannot compare them.

Joolsdc
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Post by Joolsdc » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:10 pm

Of course you can compare. It is all about the real world mpg figures. Or cost per mile/km for an EV
We have to stop burning stuff

Jeffers
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Post by Jeffers » Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:13 am

The internet is always the best place to argue semantics.

The ‘self charging’ moniker suggests that the battery needs no outside influence to replenish its charge, that’s obviously incorrect but unfortunately there are a lot of ignorant people that see these adverts. To reduce losses in a non hybrid, the alternator on a modern car will typically only be turned on when coasting or on overrun, so by the same logic, the 12v battery on a non hybrid is also self charging. There are a lot of people that don’t understand what energy is, or how much of it is required for things that we all take for granted. The ~93mpg from the Toyota in the picture is impressive in comparison to non hybrids, however it represents around 2.16mi/kWh which is lower than just about any electric car available today.

There are only 2 cars I can think of that are truly ‘self charging’, the Sono Sion, and the Lightyear One, these will increase their range by being left outside without any input other than the sunlight that would be there anyway (hopefully).

Let the semantic argument continue!

Also, is it worth moving this to a different thread?
The single raindrop never feels responsible for the flood

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Reuben80
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Post by Reuben80 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:09 am

The car is self charge not the battery. Toyota are not lying, they are promoting the advantage that their cars have over full EVs. Just let them do it, they are not saying don't buy full EVs. They are not cheating. Just promoting the advantage they have over BEV. On the whole BEV are better than Hybrids, that's why I am buying a BEV but I cannot stand the unfair critisism from BEV owners.

Jeffers
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Post by Jeffers » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:40 am

So the car replenishes energy from an external source on its own? That’s not correct. Unless you mean it converts chemical energy into electrical energy that it stores on board, but to charge it with chemical energy requires the user to fill it with petrol, therefore not self charging.

I have no power to stop Toyota advertising a misnomer, that’s for advertising standard authorities. Their ads did sort of say don’t buy anything with a plug, by advertising not having a plug as a virtue.

I feel qualified to criticise hybrids, not as a BEV owner, but as a mechanical development engineer who has has worked on the design, development, and calibration of ICE, PHEV, and hybrid powertrains. Hybrids are wasteful, just less wasteful than a conventional ICE car. They’re a stop gap, or a stepping stone to full electrification, I’d just argue an unnecessary one as a PHEV makes more sense as a stop gap measure, and gets the user used to plugging in.

Im not sure what the perceived benefits of a hybrid are over a BEV, other than range and recharge time. Personally I don’t prioritise either for what I use a car for, but then some use cases are different.
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Reuben80
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Post by Reuben80 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:15 am

Jeffers wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:40 am
So the car replenishes energy from an external source on its own? That’s not correct. Unless you mean it converts chemical energy into electrical energy that it stores on board, but to charge it with chemical energy requires the user to fill it with petrol, therefore not self charging.

I have no power to stop Toyota advertising a misnomer, that’s for advertising standard authorities. Their ads did sort of say don’t buy anything with a plug, by advertising not having a plug as a virtue.

I feel qualified to criticise hybrids, not as a BEV owner, but as a mechanical development engineer who has has worked on the design, development, and calibration of ICE, PHEV, and hybrid powertrains. Hybrids are wasteful, just less wasteful than a conventional ICE car. They’re a stop gap, or a stepping stone to full electrification, I’d just argue an unnecessary one as a PHEV makes more sense as a stop gap measure, and gets the user used to plugging in.

Im not sure what the perceived benefits of a hybrid are over a BEV, other than range and recharge time. Personally I don’t prioritise either for what I use a car for, but then some use cases are different.
Self Charging car = Push start and the battery charges even while driving without plugging it in. That is what they mean. Nobody said that there is no source of energy to charge or that is the most efficient car. You are understanding it that way.

Jeffers
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Post by Jeffers » Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:00 am

Reuben80 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:15 am
Self Charging car = Push start and the battery charges even while driving without plugging it in. That is what they mean. Nobody said that there is no source of energy to charge or that is the most efficient car. You are understanding it that way.
So a petrol powered battery? 'Self charging' is incorrect, it should be 'slower discharging', because petrol isn't consumed as quickly.

By moving a 'self charging' car, electric and/or chemical energy in the car is lost to heat and kinetic energy. If it's only moved downhill, it has lost potential energy also, regardless of how much regen has occurred it won't get back to the same height without additional energy used by the vehicle. These are simple examples of conservation of energy.

'Self charging' is an intellectually dishonest term, used by a company that should know better.
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Reuben80
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Post by Reuben80 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:31 am

Self is the car not the battery

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