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Jeffers
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Post by Jeffers » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:39 pm

Reuben80 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:27 am
It is because of him that all this hate by BEV owners started. If he did not say anything in his episodes no one would have cared about this thing.
I very much doubt that.

Reuben80 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:27 am
People are so influenced by media and don't use their own mind to think.
I would add that people are also influenced by marketing, and choose to accept what they're told from positions of perceived authority. It is not easy to discern truth from lies without an underpinning knowledge of what is being broadcast.

Reuben80 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:27 am
Thank God this finally proves what I have been saying coming out from the same mouth that started this misunderstanding and hype.
I'd be very concerned if someone's beliefs didn't change with new information.
There is no misunderstanding when self charging hybrids are viewed as petrol powered batteries.
The single raindrop never feels responsible for the flood

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rickwookie
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Post by rickwookie » Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:26 pm

Reuben80 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:27 am
...Thank God this finally proves what I have been saying...
Yes, you're quite right. Not one single person would have been bothered by Toyota's "self charging" claim if it weren't for Robert Llewellyn, and only people that already own BEVs care what happens to the planet. :roll:

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ChesterUK
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Post by ChesterUK » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:38 am

I get it @Reuben80! Self=the entire car. I still believe the self-charging moniker is misleading, but that's coming from someone who's point of view is geared towards BEV, PHEV, et al. Nevertheless >90MPG is super impressive. A friend of mine's better half has one, but he says it's absolutely gutless. 11.4 seconds to 60! Ouch! I honestly believe anything over 10 seconds is dangerous, and that mostly comes from motorcycle training and getting away from danger quickly. 21+ years of riding won't change that!

As for stop burning stuff, the truly soul destroying truth is the rate that China is increasingly adding coal fired power stations it matters almost nil. The equivalent of all traffic pollution in the UK is being added every 9 months. So feel good about your contribution (we're also glad to be doing our microscopic bit with solar etc), but it's this madness that needs to stop first. Start with the biggest polluters first and work down. The UK's doing OK and seemingly on the right track.

Anyway, I have to laugh because if there's one thing the Yaris doesn't have it's a 1500w inverter to plug in a games console or a hair-dryer, or whatever, and that's the extent we've fallen away from the original topic! ;)

grayw
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Post by grayw » Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:53 am

Until better battery tech is found BEV's are also a stop gap. the environmental impact in producing these is large, and will only increase with more production. There is also no disposal infrastructure to deal with the huge amount of EV battery waste that is coming. Greater numbers on the road also increases the load on the grid system for charging. that most likely will be filled by fossil fuels when our renewable generation cant keep up, many clean sources are actually not clean but carbon offset.


https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium ... ent-impact
https://www.onio.com/article/environmen ... eries.html
https://www.onio.com/article/environmen ... eries.html

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londiniumperson
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Post by londiniumperson » Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:56 am

grayw wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:53 am
Until better battery tech is found BEV's are also a stop gap. the environmental impact in producing these is large, and will only increase with more production. There is also no disposal infrastructure to deal with the huge amount of EV battery waste that is coming. Greater numbers on the road also increases the load on the grid system for charging. that most likely will be filled by fossil fuels when our renewable generation cant keep up, many clean sources are actually not clean but carbon offset.


https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium ... ent-impact
https://www.onio.com/article/environmen ... eries.html
https://www.onio.com/article/environmen ... eries.html
I think that you should read more up to date unbiased articles on these matters (disposal & grid load). You might become enlightened on the reality.

I fully agree that BEVs are a stop gap but not with your others statements. They are obviously not the panacea to restore the destruction of our planet by human race, however it’s better than any alternative currently available to us.

Our planet will be around long after the extinction of the human race. All we are attempting to do is extend our existence.
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rocko5000
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Post by rocko5000 » Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:18 pm

Just read this thread and find this discussion absolutely hilarious. To my knowledge the reason toyota hybrids were called self charging was to differ themselves from plug-in hybrids were the batterys have to be charged externally buy a charging port whereas the toyotas engine recharges its batteries. Also looks like toyota is finally joining the ev world

turntoport
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Post by turntoport » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:07 pm

Londiniumperson; your response to grayw's comments is spot-on. And he/she needs to do some proper research rather than imbibing then regurgitating biased twaddle.
atb - ttp

turntoport
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Post by turntoport » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:59 pm

grayw: this post is not intended to bully you, but in science great care is needed when making absolutist statements. Here's a quote from the ONiO site you provided links to:

"All life on planet earth is solar powered. All of it! There is not a single life form that does not owe its life, directly or indirectly to the sun."

Ah. the Earth's internal energy source comes from (some function of, and one we don't fully understand yet) extra-solar activity from pre-'sun' time, that provided the heavy elements and thermal energy therein. The radioactive isotopes found in Earth did not come from the sun, as far as we know: another star, probably, but that energy was and still is independent of our sun. As far as we are aware, water on earth arose as a consequence of the Hydrogen and Oxygen that formulated the as-currently known cosmos post-inflation. So the precursors to water, and energy, were in our planet's makeup from the off; hydrothermal vent life-forms indicate that the sun may well have had nothing to do with initial evolution of at least a sizable number of life-forms on our planet. In my very humble opinion, therefore, ONiO is wrong on at least one 'headline' count.
As for energy harvesting - yes, a very interesting and promising field. But the laws of thermodynamics still apply.

To the grist of your comments:
As Londiniumperson replied, technology is in early-days development for such work as chemical battery end-of-life care. But it is evolving rapidly. And is level x of Cobalt anode disposal worse than CO2 frying the whole planet? - one suspects not. And before battery end-of-life but post vehicle end of life, the batteries are likely to be used as static (domestic or commercial) energy stores, so buffering the grid when renewables over-produce: just like bev's, actually. And that buffering will be required during off-peak times, too, to allow non-diurnals such as wind, tidal and nuclear to store their unwanted energy. In the Uk, bev's may actually 'save' the national grid from failure in the near-medium term.
Regarding minerals mining: agreed, it's an issue. But it can be engineered-out if (a) the right incentives are emplaced, and (b) the corrupt 'officials' often involved are removed. We don't hear many moans about Uranium mining these days, but 3-mile island and Chernobyl (ok, the opposite of mining!) didn't exactly leave pristine footprints, either.

All things are relative here, but imho Londiumperson has a good handle on the subject; what do you think?
atb - ttp

grayw
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Post by grayw » Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:15 am

turntoport wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:59 pm
grayw: this post is not intended to bully you, but in science great care is needed when making absolutist statements. Here's a quote from the ONiO site you provided links to:

"All life on planet earth is solar powered. All of it! There is not a single life form that does not owe its life, directly or indirectly to the sun."

Ah. the Earth's internal energy source comes from (some function of, and one we don't fully understand yet) extra-solar activity from pre-'sun' time, that provided the heavy elements and thermal energy therein. The radioactive isotopes found in Earth did not come from the sun, as far as we know: another star, probably, but that energy was and still is independent of our sun. As far as we are aware, water on earth arose as a consequence of the Hydrogen and Oxygen that formulated the as-currently known cosmos post-inflation. So the precursors to water, and energy, were in our planet's makeup from the off; hydrothermal vent life-forms indicate that the sun may well have had nothing to do with initial evolution of at least a sizable number of life-forms on our planet. In my very humble opinion, therefore, ONiO is wrong on at least one 'headline' count.
As for energy harvesting - yes, a very interesting and promising field. But the laws of thermodynamics still apply.

To the grist of your comments:
As Londiniumperson replied, technology is in early-days development for such work as chemical battery end-of-life care. But it is evolving rapidly. And is level x of Cobalt anode disposal worse than CO2 frying the whole planet? - one suspects not. And before battery end-of-life but post vehicle end of life, the batteries are likely to be used as static (domestic or commercial) energy stores, so buffering the grid when renewables over-produce: just like bev's, actually. And that buffering will be required during off-peak times, too, to allow non-diurnals such as wind, tidal and nuclear to store their unwanted energy. In the Uk, bev's may actually 'save' the national grid from failure in the near-medium term.
Regarding minerals mining: agreed, it's an issue. But it can be engineered-out if (a) the right incentives are emplaced, and (b) the corrupt 'officials' often involved are removed. We don't hear many moans about Uranium mining these days, but 3-mile island and Chernobyl (ok, the opposite of mining!) didn't exactly leave pristine footprints, either.

All things are relative here, but imho Londiumperson has a good handle on the subject; what do you think?
atb - ttp
Not taken as such. agreed that the articles are not the definitive picture. Perhaps among us there are experts in the field and have a much better understanding. i don't profess to be one. and I'm ok with that. I was just trying to highlight that there are limitations with current BEV tech and they have their own environmental considerations . I'm not suggesting that they are worse than ICE',s. Just that the bring their own issues. I drive a BEV, but wont berate anyone for not driving one, or for driving a HEV because it burns fuel as well, which is what I got from some of the comments. I feel fortunate to be in a position to have one and do my bit. I also see great benefits of HEV's around cities where ICE's have a bigger impact.

I'm open to learning more about how we can deal with the problems our EV's do create , so if you have good information to help me do more research I would definitely read it..

V2G for load balancing is on trial stage as far as I know. and out of vehicles out there, the number with the capability is small. perhaps regulation to ensure that capability would go a way to help that. Time will tell if the innovations will be implemented in time . same with disposal i think.

"And before battery end-of-life but post vehicle end of life, the batteries are likely to be used as static (domestic or commercial) energy stores, so buffering the grid when renewables over-produce" - this i found very interesting, thanks. It would also be beneficial, if in the design process, recyclability was a larger consideration. I believe Tesla's batteries are particularly hard to disassemble. Another member shared this, which may be a little less bias but from what i have researched large scale recycling is still short by a long way and highly inefficient. Bioleaching looks interesting though. i don't doubt solid state cells will be a game changer in the future.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/envi ... -batteries


As for mining, I've actually seen the impact first hand. Ghana, Mozambique, and DRC. fully agree with both a) and b). A will hit the consumer. B is much harder to facilitate in Africa and I would think in South America.

turntoport
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Post by turntoport » Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:11 am

yep, grayw, agree wholeheartedly with all that. Interesting times!

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