Type 2 vs CCS charging speeds

All Honda E related discussions
User avatar
Thundarian
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:21 am

Type 2 vs CCS charging speeds

Post by Thundarian » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:41 pm

I apologise if this is probably a bit of a "new boy" question, but I want to make sure I've got the right end of the stick.

From what I've read these are the charging speeds of the two charger types:

Type 2 6.6 kW
CCS 56 kW
Source

I assume this means, in theory, it doesn't matter if it's plugged in to a 100 or 150 kW CCS charger, it will never, ever draw more than 56 kW. I remember reading people complaining (on here probably!) that with the smaller battery, Honda should have allowed the car to charge at a higher speed.

Now, it's the Type 2 speed that intrigues me. This means that no matter how fast a home charger I buy, it will never do more than 6.6 kW. Ok, I think I've my head around that. But then I see on Zap-Map, that some public charging stations (like Fleet Services for example) have one device with a CCS charger doing using 50 kW, and another with a Type 2 dishing out 43kW. Hang on! That's way more than 6.6 kW!

Does this mean if the CCS charger is taken, you'd only be able to charge at 6.6 kW on the other device?

Haaploos
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:10 pm
Location: Oslo - Norway

Re: Type 2 vs CCS charging speeds

Post by Haaploos » Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:56 pm

You have understood it correctly!

Not sure on the actual max charge speeds, but it’s around what you said: ~56kW on DC CCS chargers and ~6.6kW on a AC type 2 charger. The CCS speed is peak, we will probably never see those numbers, around 49-50kW is what seems to be peak(up until 20%) in one of Tesla Bjørn’s YT videos.

I think only some of the older models of the Renault Zoe are able to get 43kW from the AC type 2 chargers.
Modern steel advance 17"

ZoeDave
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:26 pm

Re: Type 2 vs CCS charging speeds

Post by ZoeDave » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:02 pm

Haaploos wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:56 pm
I think only some of the older models of the Renault Zoe are able to get 43kW from the AC type 2 chargers.
Yes, my Zoe, bought in 2017, does 22kW max, but I could have optioned the Continental motor unit which was the original one that does 43kW. I didn't because it cost more money and was supposedly slightly less efficient. Also I realised that being able to accept twice the power does not mean that the car charges 0-100% in half the time, rather under ideal conditions, a portion of the charge may be twice as fast.

The reason for the higher type 2 kW on the Zoe is that it is the only plug it has, and the full power is only available with 3-phase power supplies which limit it to public chargers and the occasional industrial facility. I think that some Teslas and maybe the odd other car has had 2-phase allowing for maybe up to 15kW, but it hasn't caught on. It was a nice idea as it allowed for faster charging without a second Chademo plug, but it has clearly lost the format war for charging, with CCS allowing for even faster DC charging and sorta keeping the one plug solution. Even the Zoe now has CCS as an option.

User avatar
FDAD
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:55 pm
Location: Porto, Portugal

Re: Type 2 vs CCS charging speeds

Post by FDAD » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:27 pm

Haaploos wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:56 pm
You have understood it correctly!

Not sure on the actual max charge speeds, but it’s around what you said: ~56kW on DC CCS chargers and ~6.6kW on a AC type 2 charger. The CCS speed is peak, we will probably never see those numbers, around 49-50kW is what seems to be peak(up until 20%) in one of Tesla Bjørn’s YT videos.

I think only some of the older models of the Renault Zoe are able to get 43kW from the AC type 2 chargers.
Some AC T2 chargers have showed me 6.9 to a max of 7.2kw draw. Very rarely stays at 6.6kw or even below that. I haven't charged with a CCS charger that showed my charging speed as of yet.
Honda E advance [Modern Steel Metallic] 8-) [DELIVERED JULY 2020] - 15.000Kms + :P

User avatar
keithr
Posts: 379
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:30 pm
Location: Dorset, UK

Re: Type 2 vs CCS charging speeds

Post by keithr » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:29 pm

Thundarian wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:41 pm
I assume this means, in theory, it doesn't matter if it's plugged in to a 100 or 150 kW CCS charger, it will never, ever draw more than 56 kW. I remember reading people complaining (on here probably!) that with the smaller battery, Honda should have allowed the car to charge at a higher speed.
A larger battery capaciy means that you can charge it at a higher current, and therefore get more kWh's and miles per minute of charge. 56kW is a reasonable charge rate for a 35.5kWh battery pack (it's a little faster charge rate than a 40kWh Nissan LEAF, for example).
Now, it's the Type 2 speed that intrigues me. This means that no matter how fast a home charger I buy, it will never do more than 6.6 kW. Ok, I think I've my head around that. But then I see on Zap-Map, that some public charging stations (like Fleet Services for example) have one device with a CCS charger doing using 50 kW, and another with a Type 2 dishing out 43kW. Hang on! That's way more than 6.6 kW!
CCS is DC charging, with the charger converting mains AC into DC at the appropriate voltage for the car's battery pack, and the car communicating with the charger and limiting the power, or rate of charge.

Type 2 is AC charging, with the charge limited by the charger that's built into the car - in the Honda's case it's a 6.6kW charger. A Type 2 charge point is not a charger, it is just a supply of mains AC at up to 32amps (normally, in the UK). A single phase supply, like the home Type 2 charge points, can therefore supply up to 32A * 230V = 7.36kW. A three phase supply can supply 3 * 7.36 = 22kW, but only cars fitted with three phase battery chargers can make use of that.

So Type 2 charge points capable of more than 7.36kW per phase must be capable of supplying more than 32amps.

The Honda e could potentially draw more than 6.6kW from the charge point because it can also draw power for the battery heater and/or cabin heating/airconditioning.
Last edited by keithr on Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Trykpaa
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:18 pm

Re: Type 2 vs CCS charging speeds

Post by Trykpaa » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:49 pm

There is a good reason behind. The Type2 charger is the upper round plug, and CCS the lower oblong 2 pin plug.

Type2 is wired to the onboard charging inverter, which in case of the Honda is 1 phase x 32A. This is the limiting factor. It also means that if you plug it to an 11kW (3 phase 16A) the E can only charge at around 3,6kW.

CCS bypasses the onboard charging circuit in the car (you can say its job it carried out by the charger) so is not limited by this, but rather the limitations designed into the battery.

Electric cars have different configuration for onboard charger. 3x16A, 1x16A and 1x32A are most common. Its kind of important to understand the basics behind the charging speeds in the EV marked to avoid long waits.
If you get a 7,2kW charger installed for the Honda and uses that charger on a car with 3x16A (most German cars), this car can only charge 1x16A=3,6kW.

User avatar
RAL7004
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:39 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Type 2 vs CCS charging speeds

Post by RAL7004 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:46 am

Indeed, for me this 1-phase onboard charger is the only serious design flaw of the overall concept Honda e.
At least in Berlin most of the public chargers currently are 11kW...

User avatar
Sousaphone
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:28 am
Location: Denmark

Re: Type 2 vs CCS charging speeds

Post by Sousaphone » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:48 am

RAL7004 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:46 am
Indeed, for me this 1-phase onboard charger is the only serious design flaw of the overall concept Honda e.
At least in Berlin most of the public chargers currently are 11kW...
The same goes for Denmark and our 16 amp/phase cap for public “slow” chargers. I love the car, but going from 15% to 95% is 11 hours on the nearest charger. Thank (insert deity of choice) for the 20 and 50 kW DC chargers in the area.

Trykpaa
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:18 pm

Re: Type 2 vs CCS charging speeds

Post by Trykpaa » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:23 am

RAL7004 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:46 am
Indeed, for me this 1-phase onboard charger is the only serious design flaw of the overall concept Honda e.
At least in Berlin most of the public chargers currently are 11kW...
I think there is a lot of regional differences. I believe UK (probably Japanese?) households have single phase power supply. In this context 1x32A may be more ideal.

I have considered (maybe still am) getting Mercedes EQV but I would run into charging issues. I have standard Danish 3x25A supply in my house. 1x16A as we have on the Honda charger, can be drawn with little (but some) risk of overload on that phase, without paying too much attention to simultaneous users (kitchen, heat pump especially).
The EQV can be charged at the current 1x16A but there are not enough hours in a day (28h full charge). I could upgrade to a 3x16A charger so an EQV can charge over night (8-9h), but the E will then still take 8h to charge. And I would be limited to charging during night (while turning off heat at night).
One day, it will be necessary to at least partially charge 2 cars without me getting up at 3 in the night to move a plug.

3x32A can be done but cost 10000€ upgrade (+some?). Smart chargers which can measure other loads on the electricals and adjust charger to 'take the rest' is probably the most feasible. I am checking my possibilities. And considering a Plug-in instead as it would fit my available infrastructure perfectly as is.

Haaploos
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:10 pm
Location: Oslo - Norway

Re: Type 2 vs CCS charging speeds

Post by Haaploos » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:47 pm

I understand that it’s not as satisfying to start the day without a “full” battery (80-100% depending on your preferred setting), but as long as you can recharge the amount of power you use in a day, it won’t matter if the car is fully charged each morning or not.

Don’t know how the availability of the charger in other countries of a charger called Easee, which is a Norwegian made “smart” home-charger. Three of these can be installed on the same fuse(?), and they will share the current between the chargers as needed. There are also some other type of chargers which has two outlets, which I believe will also be able to share the available power between the two cars plugged in. If interested you can check out Easee on YouTube, they have installation videos etc in both Norwegian and English. I am not affiliated with them, I just have one which I am very pleased with.
Modern steel advance 17"

Post Reply